Curse

Aera Lure · Sep 29, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

So it makes more sense to you that I should run off chasing a lone warrior to save him from near death away from the rest of my team? Why shouldn't I refuse to heal him?

This is not a good attitude/position, imho. When you monk, you are there for the team, whatever their understanding of the aggro situation and team vulnerabilities in any given situation. Refusing to heal someone will not "teach" them to play better.

What I do is simply keep the party alive to the best of my ability. When some action causes trouble (a warrior overextends, or the group rushes in too soon before members have energy up) I continue with that objective, not punishing the offenders. Should someone die as a result, I will say in team chat often why it happened - the warrior got way too far out in front to where I couldnt reach, the group split up too far, didnt wait for the energy regen if someone pinged that they needed it - or, should it happen - if I made a mistake. I think this is the better way to encourage team play and to help players learn.

And no, you are not required as a monk to put the entire party at risk to run into a bunch of red dots in order to try and save a warrior that is out there ahead of that when everyone else is behind. That's silly and likely you both end up dead. Sometimes you can manage that with a well timed heal and dropping back among allies - but its a case per case sort of a thing and the need of the party outweighs that one player. Should they die tell them why, but dont make it a point simply to refuse to heal them. Imho.

broodijzer · Sep 29, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I always heal everyone, but when I'm bored I play a little game; don't heal someone until he's at like 5%. It's fun really, though you have to watch out for spikes

Kali Magdalene · Sep 29, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myria

For myself, you can be assured this is not the case. In well over a year of playing I have never partied with a human monk. In point of fact I only ever party with a couple of close friends, otherwise I hench. The reason for that being that I read way too many threads like this one back when I first started playing.

How can you expect to criticize how monks behave in teams if you've never teamed with one?

Uzul · Sep 29, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uzul

...
It's not wise to be a jerk - whichever profession you play. As monk it can be harsh to get the stick handed once someone dies, but on the same time you have the benefit of beeing able to choose the party you want to be a part of. To have the healthbars of your teammates in your hands is an important task - it's a divine quest that you choose to follow when you created the monk. There is nothing high and mighty about it thou' - since without the team that goes and kills the badguys there is no progress for the monk either. Support each other -> GG & funtimes for all.
This game is about teamplay - and ignorant minds are counterproductive... Staying calm and just talking openly will get you further than any secret mindgames or insulting remarks. I can understand the situation in which it becomes necessary to use more than words to have the team succeed in its goals.

Most times you can avoid a lot of trouble by spending some more time on partymanagement. There have been some great threads around this forum, just do a search and you find some gems.
I myself run the Patient Adventurer (tm) System for more than a year now, and it works like a charm. I was inspired by the glorious Scenic Tour Groups and made my very personal system to weed out the bad apples before even leaving the outpost.
Thanks again to IxChel. ^^

~Aya Starshine~

While risking to repeat myself here: by now not even 1% of the people I PUG with on occasion (just to give a divine hand for whatever quest, mission, task) turn out to be ignorant jerks - and the reason lies simply in social & groupmanagement skills. I can lead groups, or have a laid back time monking when someone else is ABLE to do so. If there isn't I just keep on calling.

I never rage, yell or insult anyone: but when you start beeing an ignorant jerk in front of me I might fire off some direct and exposing remarks - calmly, without any insults - but with precision. And the person who thinks he can leeroy everything, well i won't stop him from doing so - and i certainly won't spoil his accomplishment to do this all on his/her own; always with that quarter cast rescue spell up my sleave for the sure-to-come occasion that you do need me afterall.

It's called teamplay - if you don't want to play as a team, then don't team up in the first place. And teaming up blindly without any communication will mostly end in a bad experience.

/my 2cent again - and now I am out of this thread.

Age · Sep 29, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

The thing is if you refuse to heal lets a War. they may rageqiut on you and the rest of the party might not want to go any further into a mission.This is just jepordizings things up more than they could and in most cases there are usually 2 Monks in a party if it was 1 I could understand more for being cautious but to at the expense of your own War or other.Monks and a decent team can do it even 1 Monk and some of us can perform miracles.You don't know how good that other person is.i can see holding off heals for Rangers who bring thier pets with them or any /R.I prefer not to heal pets and I don't care how good of a BM you are.
There is anther point the war. dies and is ressed he/she has now a dp and no dp is no good for any team.

byteme! · Sep 30, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

This is not a good attitude/position, imho. When you monk, you are there for the team, whatever their understanding of the aggro situation and team vulnerabilities in any given situation. Refusing to heal someone will not "teach" them to play better.

You are absolutely 100% correct. I AM THERE FOR THE TEAM not for a single individual. If a single individual "CONSTANTLY" over aggroes, runs off on the team, or tanks when they aren't supposed to after being "asked politely" what am I to do? Continuing to heal such an individual will only spoil them and give them the wrong impression that they are invincible. I will keep that person alive the best I can but when it becomes a burden on the rest of the team I don't see why I can't just let that person die. This way they can see they aren't invincible and in fact they do need to be more careful. I'm not "teaching" them anything but in fact they will learn eventually that their actions are a burden on the team. Players have to learn someday and since no one else is gonna step up and correct the wrong why can't the one healing the party say what's on their mind?

Before someone reads this and decides to nitpick through each sentense to find a flaw to quote. I have no intention of completely not healing someone. I have no intention of letting someone die. But if it benefits the team to let 1 individual die then so be it. I'm there for the team not for 1 person. I don't enforce rules or demand them but I do make it clear that if they run off I'm not obligated to chase after them to heal them knowing full well I have the rest of the party to look after.

sinican · Sep 30, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

right... I never had a problem with any monks untill they started playing these little games of "refusing" to heal someone...

yea you will get some morons in pugs sometimes more often then not... however your attitudes with the wole refusing is not making anything better you make a bad rep for yourself and others that legitamately play a good monk

as others have made clear its not always what you are able to do and what you arent able to do its that attitude that you "wont" do this or "wont" do that...

no group expects a monk to be stupid enough to chase down the noob wammo running off solo... i dont expect it and id get angry if you were a monk that did...

I also get angry at moron monks that stop healing the living party members to ressurect a dead one in the middle of a mob... thats the stupidity you get out of the henchi AI and this is exactly what people dont want real monks doing...

its this whole game some of you like to play that pisses me off... "refusal" is BS and you don't belong in any party with that kind of attitude... comon sence and strategy is completely different from "refusal"

let the agro happy people bitch that you didnt heal them and tell them why it is that you werent able to... and your explanation shouldn't be about refusal but about comon sence and what they can do to keep such a situation from happening again...

Dictating a group is BS as well.. you are a monk and if it isnt your group you have no room to tell people how to play or to threaten them... simply let them know that you are there for the party and will be where the group is and that it would not be beneficial to anyone for you to follow careless players into a lost cause...

overall this really comes down to attitude for me... and again henchis dont give it... and if i know that a real monk wont try their best to keep people alive then hell ill go with the henchis that will do their best... because i know what henchis will do i dont need the unpredictable attitudes of real monks playing the life and death game with everyone...

KoalaMeatPie · Sep 30, 2006, 02:47 AM // 02:47

I read the first page and soem comments.

This happened a couple of times, A Caster (usually Ele) Will go right up to the mob and start mostly using there wand / staff, then scream at the monks that we suck and don't know anything calling us "nubs" (LOL, I laugh at the person who says that instead of feeling insulted.) So We just let him die and then don't rez him, and if anybody does rez him, we just don't heal.

Merlin Munk · Sep 30, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

There is different types of monks. The ones who think they are responsible for whole teams life. And those who, like me, see it more like prolonging life.

The responsible type feels bad if a Teammate dies and take full blame for them dieing even if they aggroed 3 gruops of enemies.

The prolonger dont take blame. They accept the fact that people are responsible for thiere own lifes and that a monk only prolongs it during the battles. So when someone dies after aggroeing 3 gruops of enemies the blame is on the aggroer not the monk. Cause he did what he could.

How I deal with stupidity is:
1. I give advice
2. And if they dont follow, then I try too keep them alive, but most usually team dies or fails. Altough I have been suprised by the luck some teams have.

There is times I have stoped healing and ressing, and it usually involves:

Spam of "heal me" and "res me"
Namecalling
Flameing
And other misbehaveiour

I play this game too have FUN, and that above destroys the fun in my game. IE insted of leaveing whole team cause of what 1 person did. I just let him die and try too keep rest of team alive and kicking.

Thats just the way I do it
Merlin Munk

xiao1985 · Sep 30, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

great thread...

monk can be the most rewarding class, but at the same time, it can be most stressful as well, i should try that one day...

team communication is most crucial, but then, there are always people who spams "GOGOGOGOGO"... then you know that you got a rush of a player... even if you do communicate they'd get fed up... if you kick them, you seemed to be the bad player....

hyro yamaguchi · Sep 30, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Hmm yeah, I'm a monk, but at least Im a healing one, the protection monks get far less credit:

Anyoen can see their health being replenished, but can they see how I can be able to keep up due to the protection monk making damage less? No.

Set · Sep 30, 2006, 10:52 AM // 10:52

It's been pretty much said, but communication is the key in the game. Most PUGS I've been in usually fail because someone isn't reading the team chat channel or they are too busy agroing things. Course there's the very rare instance that someone actually does things on purpose like agros a big group of monsters just because they took something out of context.

However, it's always good to be the leader of a group and communicate in the team chat prior to leaving for the mission or quest. In addition, if people can't wait around for a plan to formulate or for a group to form without spamming "let's go" or something like that, that's usally a strong sign to kick them and get someone else that actually wants to form a solid team.

crow120 · Sep 30, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

From my start in Guild Wars, especially after finding guildwiki and learning exactly what monks were capable of, I've always had a respect for the person who played monk. I for one certainly would not want to be responsible for the well being of the entire flippin' party. Certainly, in the higher level areas its a lot on someone's plate to heal 7 other people keep him/herself alive watch out for enemies and stay sane. You monks are also the ones who constantly get blamed for failure and I gotta tell you that I've defended quite a few monks after the poor dead whammo is left dead on the ground for what he thinks is to long. Before I go any further I think you all should know I've never played a monk and I truly never want to, I'm a ranger.

It is true that there are monks that are elitists but, generally, when you stop to consider what they may have gone through with other pugs it is understandable when they take charge. Its not necessarily because they enjoy leading or because they like having the rest of the party by the balls, its because they have seen so many failures they know how to to adapt and overcome.
Getting away from monks being the only elitists I've seen my fair share of warriors, rangers, 'sins, ele's, mesmers, and necros (rits aren't in there because I've never seen an elitist rit.) thinking they're right your wrong and oh so stupid. I don't agree with treating other people like dog shit after a mistake and it is very obvious when someone makes a mistake and when they're just being a grief-omatic 9000. When I pug I expect a few things right off the bat.

1) Above all else mistakes will be made.
2) There may be a griefer who derives joy from ruining the group's game experience.
3) The monk and warrior will probably be at odds with each other for over extending and the monk not healing/rezzing fast enough.

Expecting those 3 things has saved me from getting honked off at the other 7 people in the party because I was the one who rolled the dice and chose to pug a mission. When yelling occurs I just try to patch it up as best I can and hopefully the group can complete the mission and part ways shortly thereafter. The point is perhaps everyone should just step back and realize that not every monk you will run into is going to screw you over. They aren't the bad guys they are playing a game they enjoy just like yourself.

Panacea · Sep 30, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Here's my personal don't-monk rules.

1. Be nice to the monk. If you're being an asshole and are telling me how I'm supposed to be healing you, you're gonna keep dying. And chances are, you'll be the only one dying.

2. If someone's drawing aggro who shouldn't, I do my best to heal them, but if they end up dying because they ran away, I'll revive them after letting them know that it's hard to keep them healed when they run away.

3. Same goes for tanks. If the tank is getting tired of waiting for the rest of the group and moves on, I probably won't follow very much.

4. I AM GOD! I control if you live or die! WORSHIP ME! (... or not. =P)

bryann380 · Sep 30, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlin Munk

How I deal with stupidity is:
1. I give advice
2. And if they dont follow, then I try too keep them alive, but most usually team dies or fails. Altough I have been suprised by the luck some teams have.

There is times I have stoped healing and ressing, and it usually involves:

Spam of "heal me" and "res me"
Namecalling
Flameing
And other misbehaveiour

I play this game too have FUN, and that above destroys the fun in my game. IE insted of leaveing whole team cause of what 1 person did. I just let him die and try too keep rest of team alive and kicking.

My monk is the same way. I'm not the type that refuses to heal someone unless he constantly says or does something to anger me. I lost count how many times they do something stupid, such as aggroing too many at one time for example, and blaming me for not healing them fast enough or having him die, especially if I'm the only monk on the team.

This is one of the reasons my monk is now officially retiring as a pug healer. I've had enough. Only my guild, alliance and good friends will be able to have her on their team from now on.

Kali Magdalene · Sep 30, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

Hmm yeah, I'm a monk, but at least Im a healing one, the protection monks get far less credit:

Anyoen can see their health being replenished, but can they see how I can be able to keep up due to the protection monk making damage less? No.

That's the psychology of boon/prot. People think you're casting healing spells anyway.

saphir · Sep 30, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

My overall awareness when I play seems very different when I am playing a monk and when I'm not playing a monk.

When playing a necro, I usually have no idea what the pug monks are doing, lthough I have a pretty good of their position (in case the enemy chasing them needs a hex). I'm usually much more focused on dishing out damage as fast as I can, how long my enchants are lasting, who I've cast SS on already and who I haven't, which mobs need which hexes (eg. +chance to miss attacks on squishies, vs interrupts on casters), and my location (am I relatively safe from aggro). Heals could come in and but I barely register or think about them unless I'm near death.

Playing a minion necro often means focusing on location of minions and beating out enemy necros at using the fresh corpses.

I'm still new to the warrior class but I've found it very easy to overextend myself in pvp. I generally have no clue at all what the monk is doing, and I may notice heals via the +number floating above my head but will have no idea what skills are being used unless I see enchants like breeze or rof.

With a ranger, I seem to focus on spreading degen, or interrupts. With my troll ungent and a stance I don't worry too much about what the monk is doing unless I bring throw dirt to protect them. But that's only aware of their position, not what they may be casting.

Playing mesmer, and being target number one for the AI, I tend to be very very aware of myself what danger I may be in.

But with all those classes it seems I only have a slight awareness of what the rest of the party may be doing. Like, oh there goes the ele, running from a pursuing grasper or something. Whew, good thing I'm not the target. And you go back to attacking or casting, or throwing out some degen/hex/snare to help the poor ele.

On the other hand, as a monk I may not know exactly what skills the enemy is using, but I am aware of mob position, team position and what skills they are using, who's being chased, who's running, who's not moving, who's getting interrupted, and of course my own position and relative safety.

In general monks will have a better awareness of overall party damage output, damage absorption, behavior and therefore know how much you as a monk can support. In a party with high and fast damage output, but with tanks that can't take much damage, you know you can push them a bit harder and take on the enemy more aggressively, since the faster they kill the less you have to heal. The danger is that when the party does get in trouble, it may go down very quickly - especially if you've been steamrolling through everything else.

Most often monks will be the first to call for a retreat during battle if things start going real bad - damage is coming in faster than you can outheal it. But the pug may think they are fine, and have a "let me just kill this one first.." mentality. At this point there will be a split in behavior depending on your monks and their analysis of the chances of party survival.. they may say, well, I can't support this party anymore, throw out a few last heals and then retreat, hoping for the rest of the party to follow. The party may start following once the heals stop coming, though often this is where the tank dies and may start screaming "wtf! heal me you stupid monks!"

The other choice a monk may make is to keep spamming those 5 point heals and prots until either half the party is dead and begins to retreat, or you experience a complete party wipe if the monk can't escape.

It's funny though, usually a lot of flak may come your way as a monk if one person dies, and the rest of the party retreats but is barely alive. But if you're the only monk or 2 monks left alive who have retreated, you hear "good job monks" .. especially in high end pve areas.

Too many pug players believe that their death was due directly to a failure of the monk, and that those in the party that survived as also due to the monk. Never thinking for a moment that maybe those other players brought their own heals and evasion and were a bit more careful when taking damage they couldn't handle.

Sekkira · Sep 30, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

This post will be about random thoughts, but relevent to the topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panacea

Here's my personal don't-monk rules.

1. Be nice to the monk. If you're being an asshole and are telling me how I'm supposed to be healing you, you're gonna keep dying. And chances are, you'll be the only one dying.

Personally, you can be the biggest asshole to me when I'm monking. I'll be a complete jerk right back, but as long as you're doing your job as whatever build you're running, the heals/protection will continue rolling in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panacea

2. If someone's drawing aggro who shouldn't, I do my best to heal them, but if they end up dying because they ran away, I'll revive them after letting them know that it's hard to keep them healed when they run away.

I'll try and keep a party alive with continual drawn aggro, hell, I'll encourage it. It makes my job more challanging and interesting. Don't expect me to chase you into that far off group though. I'm good, but I'm not godlike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panacea

3. Same goes for tanks. If the tank is getting tired of waiting for the rest of the group and moves on, I probably won't follow very much.

Actually, I'd wonder what the group is doing if they're sniffing the roses. I'm in with the Warrior, if he rushes into everything, I'll follow. It's much more fun that way.

As with the retreating monks part, from a Warrior's perspective, I try to make sure that if someone is going to die, it will be me first. I'll hold aggro onto me and try to keep it there (even though I hate playing a tank, don't play a tank and only play what a Warrior was designed for; Damage). If the party is suffering and requires retreat, I'll stay there and fight valiantly to the end, hoping my team mates got away in time.

Not only did I save my team, I DIED doing so. FIGHTING. In BATTLE. HEROICLY. THEY SHALL WRITE SONGS AND PASSAGES OF MY BRAVERY AND SUCH. Or they'll just rebirth me and call me a noob for not retreating